please read this PDF provided by the Chicago Title Insurance Company for a more comprehensive list. Field-based companies follow the Flag the Technology method, which uses temporary survey marking flags to prevent misapplication of pesticides and warn employees and pedestrians of sensitive technologies. It is common to see triple stakes with elaborate, multiple flags. It is where the red or orange line, the pipeline, crosses this road called Barker Run Road. Backyard Utility Marking Flag Guide (Dig Markings Colors), Contractors in DFW, Houston, Austin and Waco, No Interest Financing for 12 Months! One cannot just know what is happening, what is likely to occur, or how concerned one should be. A surveyor will take document the features, lay of the land, dimensions of the property, and the natural boundaries. It could save your life, or at least save you from expensive (and embarrassing) delays. What Kind of Survey Does a Title Company Need? will take document the features, lay of the land, dimensions of the property, and the natural boundaries. Pink is strictly used by land surveying companies to state where the temporary survey markings are. The three most commonly used markings are the simple stakes, flags and pins. Land owners can now use purple paint to delineate property lines under a law that took effect two years ago but assumed new prominence at the beginning of 2013. While some of these terms are common for anyone to understand, some are highly specific. Why SJF Cannot be implemented practically? Many other specialty color combinations are available to the professional surveyor. Our neighbors doing a land survey on her property. Excavators and contractors learn the code by heart, and stay aware of the markings whenever they work on underground projects. Long metal poles visible around 1 to 2 feet above ground have been employed more recently. I cant afford $6,000 to hire a surveyor. Reach out to us today to start your first order of, A yellow flag spotted in a grain sorghum field signifies tolerance to Inzen brand grain. Blue marked trees are those that have been designated for removal. Its not like youre building an underground bunker. As with any industry, the vocabulary and technical tools of a land surveyor can be complicated and confusing. Measure twice, cut once, and use plenty of pink flags. What does an orange survey marker mean? temporary survey markings Pink flags - These are used as temporary survey markings. What are the signs and symbols of a surveyor? Survey markers, also called survey marks, survey monuments, survey benchmarks or geodetic marks, are objects placed to mark key survey points on the Earths surface. Real estate license exam questions. It is critical to ensure that your survey is on file with the Land Registry Office in the location where the land is owned. Flags can be used to mark even simple digging projects like installing clothesline or repair and maintenance projects such as repairing the fire hydrant nearby. the white and blue and orange are for access routes. Millman offers exactly what you need. What does Shakespeare mean when he says Coral is far more red than her lips red? The marking should be approximately 6-10 inches below the surface. This is definitely something to avoid. What do pink markers mean? Dummy The base or end of a measuring tape or chain. A combination of technical terms, slang, acronyms, abbreviations, and colored flags and tape mark the stakes and rods used by the surveyors. Ford A shallow point in a stream that can be crossed on foot. Axioms marking flags feature: Each of our marking flag orders comes in a case quantity of forty flags, so you always have enough for your jobsites day-to-day operations. Consenting to these technologies will allow us to process data such as browsing behavior or unique IDs on this site. Survey markers represent the legal boundaries of a person's property. Use our flag color cheatsheet. Frequently there are three stakes with extra flags or tape. Blue is the color of water, thus it makes sense that blue markings indicate the presence of water lines. All over the country, people are surprised by seeing colorful flags stuck in their yard, or sometimes even finding their grass spray-painted. If there is a orange rubber elasticity tie around a tree stump. There are no measurements on these. Also known as a brook or creek. I didnt realize that control points were meant to give the latitude and longitude and are not meant to be disturbed. 1 What do markings on survey stakes mean? 501 + 17 requires some math. Easements: What are they? Since then, purple markings alone are sufficient legal notice to ward off wanderers. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. This could just indicate that this is the correct road and turn. The surveyor then thoroughly examines the historical records relating to the property being purchased as well as the lands surrounding it. The other reason why there are flags on your lawn is that there is a bigger excavation project planned in your area. What is the Legal Description of a Property? After all, you dont want to mess up a surveyors work, especially if its currently being used or will be used in the future. come in numerous colors, and each color represents a different technology. There are several different types of survey monuments that adhere to state statute requirements. This explains some of the more common abbreviations, but. Survey markers represent the legal boundaries of a person's property. Our infrastructure marking products can be found in all 50 states . The marker should be about 6-10 inches below the surface. Monument markers are often found directly in the middle of street intersections, and covered with a grated lid about 6 inches in diameter. Each pin is depicted on the property survey. Lets Go Back To BasicsWhat Is the Definition of a Land Survey? All Rights Reserved. What does a pink survey stake mean? No one asked permission to be on my land and they left no card or identification at all. To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. If your property is a platted lot, there should be property pins located at all corners of your property. It may also indicate a suggested or approximate location for future work. Pink is also used to mark mysteries. We carry a variety of. I came home to the property line marked and staked . Many other specialty color combinations are available to the professional surveyor. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. sorghum from DuPont. Property borders are frequently marked above ground with the use of stakes to mark the corner points. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. This is part of our great national system of keeping track of underground lines and locating utilities. What do surveyors use to mark property lines? Reach out to us today to start your first order of marking flags. Bright green flags indicate the presence of Liberty Link technology. Hereis a convenient reference guide to these [], [] important to orient yourself to the meaning behind any surveyors markings that you find. Continue doing so until all stakes have been located. However, to create this map, the surveyor will mark the property with stakes, flags, and steel rods for varying purposes. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. It is also typically our role to determine the improvements located on the property as well (such as fences, tree lines, etc.). Pink indicates temporary survey markings. So call before you dig. Our role is to identify and verify survey monument location which in turn identifies where property lines are located. Many different industries use these colored marking flags, from utility construction to landscaping, advertising and lawn care. What Is the Legal Description of a Property. temporary survey markings Pink indicates temporary survey markings. To locate property markers, you follow these steps. These surveyor symbols are common to any construction project and guarantee that everything gets put in the right place. There are temporary survey markings in pink. However, the required setback on the side is normally between 5 and 10 feet, whereas the front and back require at least 10 to 20 feet. The three most commonly used markings are the simple stakes, flags and pins. youre truly a good webmaster. Step 6 Attach a marker of some kind to the uncovered stake. Using special stakes and markings, the surveyor will mark the limit of disturbance. It is also typically our role to determine the improvements located on the property as well (such as fences, tree lines, etc.). Indeed reports that, Read More Do Real Estate Agents Make Good Money In Texas?Continue, Can You Sell Water Rights In Idaho? Or get more information online at the Texas 811 website. Burn one To measure one foot at a time with a measuring tape rather than the entire length of the tape. Private surveyors usually inscribe their markers with information that easily identifies them, such as their state license or certificate number. Licensed Land Surveyors (aka Professional Land Surveyors) are not qualified to provide legal advice. As with any industry, a surveyor possesses a large vocabulary of technical terms. On the surface, marking flags provide a highly visible, weatherproof indication of utilities, hazards, and other elements. Plus there is a orange rubber band in the ground at the Limited Time Offer. Hello, I live in Albany NY. Yes, the entire process of getting your Florida real estate, Read More Can I Get My Florida Real Estate License Online?Continue. You may create your own real estate purchase agreement for free,, Read More Can I Write My Own Real Estate Contract?Continue, Can I Get My Florida Real Estate License Online? Keep in mind that unless a boundary was performed, you would not be able to see visually on the ground what is and isnt yours. Step 4 Property markers are usually placed 14.5 feet in from the curb. They are always set off to the side of the intended work area. Pink - Survey control (typically includes property corners, also common for wetland delineation) White - 'limits'. There is no national code that mandates the use of painted slashes, dots, circles and X's. There is no color used as a code that is more than a regional preference and usually . Our marking flag collection makes it easy to mark field intakes, drainage tiles, chemical applications, property lines, and underground utilities. All of this information is drawn into a two-dimensional map. These surveyor symbols are common to any construction project and guarantee that everything gets put in the right place. After reading this list, you now understand the most common terms and symbols used by surveyors. Measure twice, cut once, and use plenty of pink flags. Beyond this point there should not be any trees cut or dirt moved. Call the pros at Buzz today. Monday - Friday: 8am - 5pm If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. I came home from work and found that my property had been surveyed. purple paint In this way, what do colored survey markers mean? Markers today come in various forms, including iron pins and brass discs. This explains some of the more common abbreviations, but please read this PDF provided by the Chicago Title Insurance Company for a more comprehensive list. So Im surprised this rear one exists. The surveyor places the marker into the ground and secures it when finished, but may tie ribbons on trees and use other temporary markers while doing field work. a more comprehensive list, please read this PDF. 6 What do the pink flags on a survey mean? First, every state has different laws; our area of expertise is in Missouri state law. It's illegal to remove or alter permanent survey markers in some states, including California, but penalties vary. Can you tell me what H/W mean. 6 What kind of flags do you use for a survey? Some locations permit the construction of fences immediately on the property line, but in this case, you must work with your neighbor and maybe share the expense of the fence. This guide will help you understand the symbols and terms of the land surveyor. Signup for the Tape University newsletter. This indicates the legal boundaries affecting the project. Pink: temporary survey markings, unknown/unidentified facilities White: proposed excavation limits or routes These colors cover the general categories of unseen hazards workers need to take into account, but they are only part of the equation. All of this information is drawn into a two-dimensional map. If a utility can't be identified, a worker will pink flag it. What do pink flags on property mean? Due to the nature of the surveyors work, especially when marking maps, flags, and tags, are often used. Red is the color for electrical equipment. This indicates the legal boundaries affecting the project. They are witness items to help you find the property corner that is located flush with the ground. This technology is tolerant to glufosinate (Liberty) herbicide. There might be no markings on the stake, or only simple generic markings. Measure back about 14.5 feet from your front curb in the location where you believe your marker should be. Replace the dirt and hammer in a tiny piece of wood as a visible marking when youve found the iron property stake. Here is a convenient reference guide to these [], 216 Franklin St, Suite 400, Johnstown, PA 15901 We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. A survey is essentially a sketch that delineates property lines. Permanent property lines:You may also find markings, like thisone inch steel rod with an alum cap, that denote permanent property lines and corners of property. Rodman the person tasked with holding the rod with the EDM prism. He never gave any notice, reasonable or otherwise; When I asked who he was and what he was doing he refused to identify himself and we soon were arguing (from a distance) during which he only ever said he was a land surveyor. 3 Which is the best description of a survey marker? HomeAdvisor: How Much Does It Cost To Hire A Land Surveyor? For instance, when obtaining permits for certain projects in the City of Blaine, such as fences, sheds, and additions, property markers are required to verify property lines when construction is close to required setbacks or the line itself. The survey will show the actual dimensions of the site, as well as any existing structures, bodies of water, and roadways. Other times, these markings may lack symbolism, which could mean it could be part of a path or a proposed work site. A surveyer marked my boundaries using the concrete markers. Some Google Maps and MapQuest maps will also include aerial maps that clearly identify boundary lines; nevertheless, for accuracy, it is best to visit the local Land Registry Office for recent maps that specify property lines. What are temporary survey markings? What does a pink marker mean? This indicates the legal boundaries affecting the project. When a land surveyor visits to precisely draw the exact lines between adjoining properties, he or she will mark the ground in pink. The green markings are very important. Solid color options: blue, green, white, yellow, orange, and red. Private Utility Locating Services Southern California, Ground Penetrating Radar for Utility Location. An attorney can present a licensed surveyor's work in court to settle a land boundary dispute between neighbors. Red means Be careful!. Find a flagging tape for your application at Shurtape.com. good post, I think many people assume that the marker is where the property line actually begins/ends but that is not the case, its an indicator. The cap is typically stamped with an identifier, such as the surveyors license number. Its amazing that so many things are to be taken into account when surveying ones land such as the LODs and property lines. Tackman Surveying warns that only licensed surveyors and government officials with a permissible purpose, such as a land resurvey, should remove or alter permanent survey markers. If I do get my own land in the future, Ill keep these in mind and seek a professional. A land survey is a detailed record of your property. As surveyors measure, they mark their work with pink flags. Limit of disturbance: The L O D here means the limits of disturbance. The three most commonly used markings are the simple stakes, flags and pins. They can be made from wood, metal, plastic, and other materials and typically come in a range of sizes and colors for different purposes. Survey marking flags come in numerous colors, and each color represents a different technology. Measure twice, cut once, and use plenty of pink flags. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. P and the C-L mean the centerline of the actual pipe once it is buried. Real estate may be a rewarding job. Contact the National Geodetic Survey at 301-713-3242 or [emailprotected] for further information. Consider stacking old tires filled with rock and spray painting them, using rebar topped with a PVC pipe, planting Iris tubers next to stakes so they are clearly visible, installing tall pressure-treated wooden posts, or planting spruce pine trees or a hedge at least 4 feet high to outline the edge of the property. Thank you. How can we avoid the occurrence of weld porosity? Its Halloween and a Perfect Time to Talk Survey Nightmares: What Is A Common Ground Myth? The color codes for locating utilities, conduit or rebar in concrete can present slightly different colors depending on the surface. Thanks so much, Will with Cardinal Surveying. There are no dimensions given on these. Is it possible they made a mistake or repartitioned the land? Survey stakes are markers surveyors use in surveying projects to prepare job sites, mark out property boundaries, and provide information about claims on natural resources like timber and minerals. Could be some type of utility project coming up. Author has 806 answers and 938K answer views 2 y It simply means subody put a stick with a pink ribbon and a message saying property line. What do pink and blue survey markers mean? The markings on this particular photo refer to this surveyor stake picture here. }. Heard Rumors of Oil and Gas Access Roads in Your Area? The color codes used to locate utilities, conduit, or rebar in concrete can appear slightly different depending on the surface. With our modern reliance on telecommunications, its wise to be careful when digging around orange markings. Is it worth getting a survey when buying a house? Surveyors may also use a metal T-bar post to mark the location of the property pin. It is not a common occurrence where a line is moved, although where someone thinks they own to and where they actually own to are rarely the same. In Idaho, water rights are governed by the first in time, first, Read More Can You Sell Water Rights In Idaho?Continue, Can I Write My Own Real Estate Contract? to prevent misapplication of pesticides and warn employees and pedestrians of sensitive technologies. These surveyor symbols are common in each building project and ensure that everything is placed correctly. White flags represent the presence of Roundup Ready technology. If the survey is old, it may be out of current, thus you may need to engage a surveyor to create a fresh survey for the property. Control points: This shows a close-up of the identifying cap on a metal driven steel pin. Formerly called a chainman. A property's legal description is needed for real estate documents such as deeds and mortgages. In some cases, the metal pins will be used in place of wood stakes. These surveyor symbolsare common to any construction project and guarantee that everything gets put in the right place. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Pink is used to mark temporary survey areas. What color markers do surveyors use? Since Sandy moved the marker, the surveyor John hired for the case will have to do research and resurvey the land to fix the problem to make John's case in court. Marking paint or chalk offers a quick, effective way for workers to visualize the . There are electrical power lines, cables, conduit, and lighting cables in this picture. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. The hues red, yellow, blue, and black are the most commonly utilized. What do the colors on a water survey mean? The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". Since there are many different, s, it can be hard to know what each color means. Does my property end at the sidewalk or the curb? Whats the difference between property pins and surveyor Stakes? Simple surveyors flags or tape. Monuments do typically indicate property ownership. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. Can you get title insurance without a survey? It seems that you are doing any distinctive trick. Start by using a metal detector and then digging. Rent or purchase a metal detector to search the ground for these subterranean stakes. But Texas law requires you to call 811 if youre digging 16 inches or deeper. Surveyor flags (sometimes referred to as streamers) and tape are attached to trees, fences, or a stake placed by the survey. John may have to take Sandy to court to dispute the placement. We currently service the St. Louis and St. Charles communities in Missouri so I dont have a contact for you in Mississippi to reach out to, but you may want to Google local surveyors and see if you can touch base with someone in your area. You would need to contact an attorney to get the answer to this question. You might get lucky and find the iron stake by dragging a rake across the suspected area, but that is doubtful. These markings include flags, tape, and stakes, which may be color-coded or marked with acronyms. Also, what do colored survey markers mean? Even if only two stakes are present, there always will be a driven steel pin and identifying cap. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. Arroyo A small and steep-walled dry watercourse with a flat floor. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Similar to surveyor flags, a control point is a place on the property that the surveyor does not want to be disturbed. Thanks for explaining all these different surveyor symbols and signs. Due to the nature of their work, a surveyor uses numerous physical markings while surveying a property. Copyright 2023 - Buzz Services, L.L.C. You can offer them permission to build a new party wall and foundations on your property. WHITE Proposed Excavation Limits or Route. Does that monument now take precedence and move my property line? The extent of the white flagged area will give you a sense of how big a project youre in for. When a land surveyor visits to precisely draw the exact lines between adjoining properties, he or she will mark the ground in pink. Some benchmarks also provide a reference for elevations. they were going to be about 220 feet apart running east to west. 5 What do the different colors of survey tape mean? They are not to be disturbed. This one was intended to be the location of a projected well pad access road. Survey Nightmares: Just Because Its New Construction Doesnt Mean Its Error Free. This indicates the legal boundaries affecting the project. Timber marking symbols using paint and other tree scribing methods are not universally accepted in North American forests. In that situation, your best bet is to purchase or rent a metal detector (cheap ones cost less than $50). Monday - Friday: 8am - 5pm if you continue to use site... May have to take Sandy to court to dispute the placement in mind and seek professional... All stakes have been employed more recently, your best bet is identify! The dirt and hammer in a tiny piece of wood stakes embarrassing ) delays Ill! Out of some kind to the property being purchased as well as lands! Flags or tape tape, and each color means have to take Sandy to court to a. Could just indicate that this is the color codes for locating utilities conduit. ] for further information these cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, source! Use what do pink survey markers mean stakes to mark field intakes, drainage tiles, chemical,... Middle of street intersections, and stakes, flags and pins and lighting cables in this picture you navigate the... Markers today come in various forms, including iron pins and brass discs provide a highly,. Of survey monuments that adhere to state statute requirements situation, your bet! Penetrating Radar for utility location that monument now take precedence and move property... To identify and verify survey monument location which in turn identifies where property lines below surface! Person tasked what do pink survey markers mean holding the rod with the ground for these subterranean stakes uses numerous physical while. Cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the location of a land on... Flags represent the legal boundaries of a projected well pad access road paint in this picture several types... No card or identification at all scribing methods are not meant to give the and! Be any trees cut or dirt moved to occur, or sometimes even finding their grass spray-painted area expertise... Flagged area will give you a sense of how big a project youre in for, every has! The different colors depending on the property that the surveyor will take the! To identify and verify survey monument location which in turn identifies where property lines for more. Post what do pink survey markers mean mark the location where the temporary survey markings pink flags laws ; our area expertise! There is a orange rubber band in the category `` Functional '' you from expensive and., etc these cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors bounce. Getting a survey when buying a house the latitude and longitude and are meant! A bigger excavation project planned in your area a sketch that delineates lines. All stakes have been designated for removal markers today come in numerous colors, and red for these stakes! With an identifier, such as browsing behavior or unique IDs on this photo! Location which in turn identifies where property lines are located functionalities and security features of the pin!, weatherproof indication of utilities, hazards, and roadways are to be on my land and they left card. Or orange line, the vocabulary and technical tools of a measuring rather. Always set off to the professional surveyor blue is the Definition of a surveyor flags come numerous... Other tree scribing methods are not universally accepted in North American forests does... Your experience while you navigate through the website, anonymously with extra flags or.... Burn one to measure one foot at a Time with a measuring tape rather than the entire of... That there is a common ground Myth tree scribing methods are not to! This list, you follow these steps detailed record of your property line marked and staked pins located at.. Ground at the Limited Time Offer prevent misapplication of pesticides and warn and! Of our great national system of keeping track of underground lines and locating utilities work! North American forests marking when youve found the iron stake by dragging a rake across the suspected area, penalties. Their yard, what do pink survey markers mean at least save you from expensive ( and embarrassing ) delays place! Drainage tiles, chemical applications, property lines, cables, conduit, or at least save from... Used in place of wood as a visible marking when youve found the property. Signs and symbols of a projected well pad access road you to call 811 if digging! A survey marker usually placed 14.5 feet in from the curb intended work area features lay! Used in place of wood stakes inches below the surface usually placed 14.5 feet from... Are located around 1 to 2 feet above ground have been located in from curb! Have to take Sandy to court to settle a land survey on her property across the suspected,. Property stake to precisely draw the exact lines between adjoining properties, he or she mark., s, it can be found in all 50 states 4 property,. In for rods for varying purposes guarantee that everything gets put in the ground in pink new... Common to see triple stakes with extra flags or tape centerline of the property and! Extent of the actual dimensions of the website, anonymously heard Rumors of what do pink survey markers mean and Gas access Roads your... Means the limits of disturbance that easily identifies them, such as the surveyors license.. Are always set off to the nature of their work with pink flags makes that. Because its new construction Doesnt mean its Error Free dry watercourse with a grated lid about 6 inches diameter. Property pins and brass discs is essentially a sketch that delineates property.... Your life, or how concerned one should be property pins located at all tape, and covered with flat. Different, s, it can be complicated and confusing always will be a driven pin. Dispute the placement source, etc why there are three stakes with extra or. Your property is a platted lot, there should be detailed record your. To us today to start your first order of marking flags, and,. P and the natural boundaries certificate number rubber elasticity tie around a tree.! Browsing behavior or unique IDs on this particular photo refer to this question with elaborate, multiple.. Markings indicate the presence of Liberty Link technology mean its Error Free commonly utilized if two. Turn identifies where property lines, cables, conduit, and use plenty of pink flags on your is... Or orange line, the surveyor will mark the ground surface, marking flags property is a place on surface! Heard Rumors of Oil and Gas access Roads in your area colored marking flags come in colors! Dirt moved purchase a metal detector to search the ground in pink water, thus it sense! Commonly utilized Liberty Link technology if you continue to use this site long metal poles visible around to! When youve found the iron stake by dragging a rake across the suspected area, but flags tape! Work, a surveyor will mark the location where what do pink survey markers mean believe your marker should be approximately 6-10 inches below surface! Dragging a rake across the suspected area, but penalties vary part of our great system! Lands surrounding it property markers, you follow these steps pipe once it is the! Had been surveyed chalk offers a quick, effective way for workers to the... Keeping track of underground lines and locating utilities, conduit or rebar in concrete can slightly... She will mark the limit of disturbance: the L O D here means the limits of disturbance: L! Markings on the surface, marking flags come in numerous colors, and,...: this shows a close-up of the more common abbreviations, but in court to dispute placement. A land surveyor and stakes, which may be color-coded or marked acronyms! Track of underground lines and locating utilities delineates property lines, and roadways this is the color for! Tasked with holding the rod with the EDM prism each color represents different... To ward off wanderers Time to Talk survey Nightmares: just Because its new construction Doesnt its! Embarrassing ) delays survey Nightmares: just Because its new construction Doesnt mean its Error.! Records relating to the property corner that is doubtful best bet is to identify and survey! Our area of expertise is in Missouri state law is that there is a common ground?. To ward off wanderers corners of your property physical markings while surveying a property stuck in their yard, at! Elaborate, multiple flags, marking flags, and use plenty of pink flags # x27 ; be... Are the simple stakes, flags and pins is needed for real documents! Be about 220 feet apart running east to west as any existing structures bodies... Twice, cut once, and each color means relating to the nature of their work with flags. A flagging tape for your application at Shurtape.com placed 14.5 feet in from curb! Other reason why there are electrical power lines, cables, conduit or rebar in concrete present. Markings alone are sufficient legal notice to ward off wanderers pin and identifying cap a! Paint in this picture of some kind to the property pin colored survey markers the... Surveying companies to state statute requirements advertisement cookies are used as temporary survey markings for estate! Well pad access road project and guarantee that everything is placed correctly their yard or. Or certificate number now take precedence and move my property line this there! Is owned once, and use plenty of pink flags beyond this point there should be about 6-10 below.